Apparently my child’s high school runs its honors classes within the regular class. So, they will be in biology and three weeks into the school year will have the option to elect into honors biology. Where apparently the honors students remain in the classroom but do more work (extra papers or extra questions on tests or whatnot). Honestly, this seems awful to me. The worst possible approach (for the honors kids). Am I wrong Anyone have experience with this
It’s just a money saver.
fionamathews said:
It’s just a money saver.
I suspected that might be part of it. I could see the approach making sense in a district where there was very low demand for honors programming (in a better than nothing kind of way), but that does not describe our district.
@sheldon
It is not for money. It’s because of equity. It’s not real honors. An honors class would teach the content faster and in greater depth. This approach is just to pacify parents who rightly object to putting all students in the same class, regardless of ability.
@Grayson
Not necessarily. At my school, the honors biology students do go deeper into concepts, have more challenging assessments, and have additional labs that cover additional content. Just because it’s in the same space as regular bio doesn’t mean it’s not a real honors class.
@Dr.Smitha
This was actually how a ton of my graduate classes were handled at a small satellite campus - we sat in lectures with undergrads but had extra assignments and at least one deeper semester-long-self-guided project to do as well. We were encouraged to be at office hours regularly to keep our extra work on track and get more nuanced guidance and insight on that specific subject. So I guess it’s at least preparing the kids to attend graduate school at a small satellite campus.
They discussed doing this at my school at one point. It was pretty heartily shot down by the staff. Trying to teach two classes at once puts everyone at a disadvantage I think. Usually the reasoning is that the higher achieving students will help the less high achieving students just by being there and interacting with them. I don’t think I buy that line of reasoning.
@Mentor
To me, it seems they are just punishing the honors kids with more but not necessarily better (deeper, more challenging) work. And honors lectures shouldn’t be covering the same material in the same way as regular classes. Or there is no point in having an honors (except to get parents of high achievers off your back with a fig leaf of a program).
@sheldon
I’d just like to add another perspective here. For context, I have taught precalculus (at various levels—dual credit, honors, on level, language center, and special ed/inclusion) and calculus 1 and 2 for most of my career. In terms of planning for honors vs on level: when it was entirely up to me to plan, my strategy was to start by only planning for honors. I would always first come up with how to approach the more rigorous content. And I would deliver that same rigorous lesson to both honors and on level. HOWEVER I would then go back and add in additional scaffolding for the on level students. This could take the form of an extra, more simple introductory example, more guided practice, incorporating more use of the calculator as appropriate, or lots of other strategies. The result was that honors would have more time for group or independent practice whereas on level had probably an extra 10 minutes or so of me leading the lesson, not a huge deal in a 90 minute block. In terms of tests, I would use the same tests for both honors and on level. But for on level, i organized the test questions by topic for them (and usually labeled the topics, like the test would have a heading: #1-5 Finding domain / #6-10 inverses, etc), vs for honors the questions would be jumbled in random order. This practice resulted in having a similar test average across both groups of students, usually within 5% or so. In terms of teaching two different classes in the same room simultaneously: I have actually done this before! I do not typically have enough calculus 2 students to justify their own section. Instead, the couple of calc 2 students are scheduled into my calc 1 class. I teach the calc 1 lesson while the calc 2 students participate (their AP exam is cumulative after calc 2, so the lesson benefits them even if it’s a review). Then when the calc 1 lesson is finished and I get those students started on work time, I’ll pull the calc 2 students to the side and teach them their lesson small group. I just was mindful in my planning of calc 2 to make their lesson relate to or build off of what calc 1 was covering that day. This setup worked really well for me! Every single one of the students who’ve ever taken calc 2 with this setup with me have passed their AP exam, whereas normally about half of the students in a standalone calc 2 class, either with me or in my district in general, pass the exam. So I guess what I am trying to say here is that, I can see a way where your daughter’s bio class could work. You have EVERY right to ask questions about how it will be handled! But I wouldn’t necessarily write off the idea of it right away. Don’t go in guns ablazing assuming the worst I guess. I’d say, go ask questions and hear them out. This type of setup is plausible and can work.
@Charlotte
Thank you for explaining how you handle this in your classroom! My only experience with anything remotely similar to this was a rather unhappy 4/5 split class I had in elementary. And I certainly don’t intend to go in guns blazing - I don’t think that would be helpful. Just trying to figure out the intelligent questions to ask and whether there is anything that can be smoothed around the edges of it to make it better. I know they are not going to change their approach. Fortunately advanced math is still run as a separate class, so this will only impact science, English and history.
@Charlotte
I read a lot of Miss Read’s books. In the days of one-room schoolhouses, teachers taught many levels in the same room. It is possible to do it, then. I wouldn’t want to have to do it myself, but it doesn’t seem to have hurt those kids.
@Charlotte
No matter how you cut it, the amount of instructional time for each group is reduced. If a Calc 2 student needs help during work time - then they can’t get it because you’re instructing the Calc 1.
@sheldon
As I teacher who has taught at all levels over a long career, this whole situation has two aspects I absolutely hate: 1. The idea that classes are made advanced by adding more work or additional questions. A true advanced class is not made by covering more or even covering faster, it is made by covering deeper. Everything from how you interact with students, the academic independence you give them, the true understanding rather than rote knowledge, ALL that is different. 2. The idea that the more advanced students should teach the struggling students. This one is a pet peeve of mine and puts me at odds with many of my peers. Educating other students and managing other’s behavior is not their job. Maybe I’m just still salty about my experience in school of being the good behavior buddy and told it’s my role to set a good example for them when my classmates were falling behind. Yes, students can help others, and yes, some can take leadership roles, but don’t put the teacher’s job on the student. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
@sheldon
I don’t think anyone knows for sure. You certainly wouldn’t need to assign all the same work to the honors students as the other students. You could definitely imagine a scenario where a teacher would give more analytical assignments to the honors students, and take the approach that if you do those well, they will adequately demonstrate your surface understanding of the material as well. And honors can definitely mean deeper understanding, rather than more content. However, it also takes instructional time to help those students learn to succeed at the deeper expectations, and the teacher is going to already have their hands full with supporting the rest of the class.
StephieStephie said:
@Mentor
Even if it was true, it’s not the high achieving kids job to help the other kids.
Not officially, but it’s a practical expectation. Little House on the prairie, one room schoolhouse, homeschoolers… Learners are teaching other Learners all the time.
@Sage
Sry, but this is such a screwed up philosophy and needs to be placed in the trash bin, now! Smart kids have every right to learn at their pace as everyone else. They are not there to make the teachers job easier, they are there to learn. Plus, it creates a social disparity dynamic the often places the helpers at risk in other areas since many of the helped don’t appreciate it and want to prove their value by taking it out on them. This needs to be stopped.
@MarieraArteaga
As someone that hires these kids into jobs someday, please don’t take the position that having to help someone else learn something is detrimental to the kids. This is a critical life skill that helps solidify learning for all. It’s devastating to see resumes of people who were honors and high achieving through high school and college get to the workforce and literally have no ability to articulate or apply what they’ve learned.